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They were also used to prosecute sodomy as a means of rape. I may be wrong, but I don’t believe this was covered under normal laws regarding rape. So a pedophile who abused a boy would have a sodomy charge.
The reason they were seldom applied to consensual relationships is because it required a high standard of proof that couldn’t be usually met. The older laws required physical evidence or a large number of witnesses, so there couldn’t be scurrilous accusations. And family members weren’t going to turn over a brother or sister for something like this.
They also applied to male-female sodomy and didn’t single out homosexual relationships until the 20th century, which is something Justice Kennedy pointed out in Lawrence. I was reading about one case where a husband was prosecuted for committing sodomy with his wife. Kennedy made the case that this meant the state was no longer prosecuting an act neutral to its participants, but the participants on the basis of their sexual orientation.
Interestingly, he declined to judge whether marriage laws were neutral about the sexual orientation of its participants in later cases.
RD: “Justice Scalia pointed out in his Lawrence dissent that the decision effectively invalidates all morals laws.”
Scalia made a lot of sweeping pronouncements in that dissent without bothering to back them up with much more than his own authority. His domino argument assumes no laws relating to sexual behavior have any bases other than that a majority of citizens in any given jurisdiction holds that they should be illegal. So, if the Court could ignore what most Texans thought and declare homosexual behavior legal, there was really no basis left for criminalizing other sexual behaviors Texans hate, from polygamy and same-sex marriage to incest. In other words, Scalia was basing criminalization on the will of a democratic majority, not on teleology or tradition or much else. But he couldn’t foresee that will changing with regard to homosexuality and yet remaining constant with regard to, say, incest. And yet in America at large, the democratic majority has come to agree with the reasoning of the Court that the principle of equal treatment required striking down state sodomy laws because they’d been enforced against homosexuals only, not heterosexuals. And the same principle eventually turned both the Court and public opinion in favor of same-sex marriage on the grounds that homosexuals should have the same right as heterosexuals to marry their partners of choice. You may think Scalia was right that sodomy laws should have been upheld, but I can’t see how the grounds he used for his argument are any help at all.
Giuseppe writes, “Corporate businesses are a completely different thing and they shouldn’t have a right to discriminate.”
Come again? This lies flatly contrary to the argument that religious conservatives have made in numerous pending cases. If business entities other than churches can have religious beliefs that permit discrimination, then it should make no difference what those religious beliefs are. Otherwise, the government is guilty of privileging one set of religious beliefs over another. Thus, if a for-profit corporation, such as the flower shop in Washington, can discriminate against LGBTQ people on religious grounds, then a bank, law firm, etc. should be able to protect its “values” and thereby discriminate against people who hold views contrary to those values.
I see religious conservatives as asking for a heads-we-win-tails-you-lose sort of scenario. They want to be able to discriminate against LGBTQ people in their own businesses. Even so, they want to retain legal protections for themselves in instances where they work for employers whose values they oppose.
If the flower shop in Washington has the right to refuse certain services to LGBTQ customers as a means of protecting its corporate values, then an investment bank ought to have the right to make business and employment decisions that protect its corporate values.
“This is not paranoia. McCarthyism did not end with McCarthy.”
Correct on both counts.
This is truly getting out of hand! And with no end in sight. In looking back, I am amazed at the speed with which what was heretofore considered deviant and abnormal behavior has now reached a point where it has become the “in thing.” The credit if you will goes to those who are in control of the media and to their ability to manipulate information with the knowledge that the great mass of humanity is essentially stupid and will buy into anything. When asked why he composed “Les Prelude” (which he considered third-rate), Liszt replied “Because people love trash.” Who controls the media controls the agenda. And the public, like lemmings, simply follow.
And we wonder why a supposedly “civilized” country like Germany could come under demonic possession.
NFR: I do believe the state has the right to criminalize homosexual behavior, though I believe that the state generally should not do that. Justice Scalia pointed out in his Lawrence dissent that the decision effectively invalidates all morals laws. — RD.

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